Oral History Interview with Toni Pepe, 2024-02-02

[RECORDING STARTS]

EMMA TRUSCOTT: All right, we're all recording. So I'm going to start with like-- I have a little spiel, and then we'll get into things. [TP: Sounds good.] Um, Today is Friday, February 2nd, 2024. And it is 12:05 PM.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: My name is Emma Truscott. I'm a student employee with RIT Archives and today I'm interviewing Toni Pepe. Toni, Toni is a artist and an educator working mainly in photography alongside other supporting mediums. Toni graduated from RIT in 20-, 00:00:302008 with an MFA in photography and we are now working on putting an exhibit together of her work. Um, And this interview is being conducted over TheirStory. So, before we get started, I'm just going to ask for your verbal consent to record the interview.

TONI PEPE: Yes, you have my consent.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Awesome. All right. I'm going to have you start off by telling me your full name, the year you graduated RIT, and what program you were part of.

TONI PEPE: Sure. Uh, My name is Toni Pepe, and I graduated 00:01:00in 2--officially in 2008. And I was in the, um, Imaging Arts and Related Media Masters of Fine Art program. Yeah, that's what they called it. (laughs)

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Awesome. And then we'll go back a little bit further to, ah, when and where you were born.

TONI PEPE: Oh, sure. Um, I was born on November 15, 1981 in Boston, Massachusetts. Um, and I grew up in Revere, Massachusetts.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: 00:01:30Um, So then I wanted to ask you about your relationship with art, like at an early age. If you can remember back.

TONI PEPE: Yeah, I wasn't... I wasn't really surrounded by artists or academics as a kid, um. But I, I have a father who can fix anything. Um, He, he had this really wonderful garage that was full of stuff. I mean, um, 00:02:00he had anything from the expected lawnmower to all of these little canisters and buckets full of different screws and fasteners to record collections and books and maybe some toys, all sorts of things, um. And oftentimes he would find these things on the side of the road, ah. If someone, if someone was throwing them away, maybe it was the night before trash pickup and we would drive around looking for things. People would give him 00:02:30things because they knew that he liked to fix things that were discarded or broken. Um, And so I saw this my whole life and I think---I, I didn't realize it at the time, but it was really this like cabinet of curiosities before I, before I knew what that was. [something falling] So, So I think that instilled in me in a very young age, uh, an appreciation for, um, seeing things the way that other people, other people might not see them. Ah, 00:03:00to consider things that have been dismissed or tossed out or labeled as obsolete, um. And so that, that to this day has fueled the way that I make-- I mean, my studio is a garage and I don't think that's a coincidence. So, uh, so it's not art per se, but, but it definitely, um, affected the way that I view the world and, and what I what I value or what I see is valuable. Yeah.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: 00:03:30That's really cool. All right. And then, so then we'll move up to RIT time. If you want to tell me a little about your journey to RIT.

TONI PEPE: Yeah, I, I had a professor--So I, I didn't think that I was going to be an artist ever. I always thought I was going to be a writer, and I was an English major as an undergrad. But I took a photo class, a darkroom photo class and immediately fell in love and took every photo class 00:04:00I could take and knew that this was it. And one of my professors had suggested, he said, "RIT has a great program." And so, you know, I didn't know much about-- Again, I was first generation to go to college. I didn't know much about what it really means to, ah, research a, a program. And, um, and so I really took his word on, on RIT, you know, being a place to go if you're interested in photography. And I applied to a few other programs, um, 00:04:30but RIT was my top choice. Um, just because of the conversations I had with him and I trusted his, his opinion. Um, And, um, I was, I was shocked that I got in (laughs) because I was, I was an English major. I was not, I was not a visual arts major photo major, um. And I had taken a year off after undergrad to, to build my portfolio. Um, But I was, I was--I remember getting a phone call from, um, Therese Mulligan, 00:05:00who was the head of the program at the time, and I was like, "Are you sure?" (laughter) "Are you sure I'm in?" So, um, and, and I was thrilled. It was my top choice and, um, I was, I was really over the moon to, to be able to go there and study and, um, focus on a discipline that, um, that I really fell in love with when I was at Michigan State.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Oh, that's really cool to see just things 00:05:30like shift and change, like unexpectedly.

TONI PEPE: Right. Yeah. And I think it's like, I don't, I don't think I really knew. It's so hard to know when you're 17, 18 years old going into college, but what you want to do, um. And I think, um, but when I found photos, like this little light switch went off. So...

EMMA TRUSCOTT: That's awesome. When did you--- So you came across that when you were in undergrad, and that was like your 00:06:00first time exposed, really?

TONI PEPE: Yeah, I, um, I was a sophomore. And, at the time, I, I thought I was going to be a writer, maybe be a journalist. And I took a photo class as part of, as part of my degree is like an elective and that's, yeah, that's when I first became exposed to it, no pun intended. (soft laughter) Yeah. Photo jokes.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: 00:06:30I love them. Um, Could you tell me a little bit about your time then at RIT, any like really memorable experiences?

TONI PEPE: Yeah, um, it had a, it had a huge effect on me as an artist. I mean, going into RIT, I think about my mindset and what I thought I could do with photography when I first got there and then when I left. And my whole vision of the discipline 00:07:00and, and my skills and my confidence and all of that just completely, it was completely a total change, complete transformation. (laughs) So, um, and I would say, I would say some of, some of the more memorable---I mean, we would have reviews at the end of every semester. And I remember the, the sort of cloud of anxiety, you know? \That would surround everybody getting these prints 00:07:30up on the wall, presenting them to our faculty and then reviewers who we didn't know, um. But how, you know, at the time I was very, very nervous, but it really prepared me for what was to come after leaving graduate school and what it means to present yourself and present your work and, um, that you have to be able to talk about it. You have to be able, um, to share and communicate with confidence. So, um, so I think it really prepared me. And then just my 00:08:00individual conversations with faculty. Um, I worked closely with Angela Kelly, who is now retired. I, I worked closely with Chip Sheffield, um, who is not in the photo program. He is an art history professor. But it was really a lot of those individual meetings that I, I got advice, artists to look at, readings to look at that helped to shape, um, all of the ideas around my work and, and help me put it into a 00:08:30larger context.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Yeah, That's really nice. It sounds like you had quite a few mentors there, um. Have you kept in contact with any of them, still talk with them?

TONI PEPE: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Um, I, I recently, I think I spoke to Angela. Yeah, recently. And I'm hoping to see her when I, when I come up for the exhibition. Um, I hope to see Chip as well. Um, But yeah, I, I always keep them up to date on any exhibitions 00:09:00I'm having, or just reaching out to say, "Hi." Um, I also--- There are other faculty like, I think Dan Larkin is still there, um. He's someone I also worked closely with, um. And I think Patti Rosati, I don't think she has retired yet, but, I think she's still there too, so.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Really cool. That's awesome. All right. [loud shuffling] So I have a few questions about your thesis, like later on, but is there any--- I, 00:09:30I don't really, I, I don't know how grad school works too much but like, do you want, is there any like work that you--- Is it mainly your thesis the work that you make during your time?

TONI PEPE: The way, yeah, the way the program was structured when I was there was that you had these, um, you had a review at the end of the fall, in the fall you had a review of your first year and then you had a review... at the end of the academic year, so in the spring you had a big, 00:10:00there was like a big review. And then, and then you worked on your thesis, so. They called them walkthroughs, you had two walkthroughs and then, um, and then your thesis is what you focused on the following year, um. And so it was mainly the work that I made, uh. it was all supporting my thesis, so it was like these smaller projects where I was exploring and tweaking ideas and techniques that then eventually led me to my le-- my thesis.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Okay, cool. Yeah, that makes sense.

TONI PEPE: Yeah.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: 00:10:30Cool. Okay. Um. You kind of touched on it, but there--- Are there any like, big skills that you have learned at that you're still using today within your work?

TONI PEPE: Yeah, I mean, I mean, there are definitely skills that I, uh, honed were lighting. So, I, I, um, I worked a lot on my lighting when I was there, um. and the equipment cage is insane, as you 00:11:00know, And so, um, I was able to take out, you know, top of the line medium format digital camera, which I still, I still use today, um. And, and so I was---And even just the shift to digital. So I was there when everything was shifting from, from darkroom to digital. And I had grown up with photo knowing really only darkroom. I didn't, I didn't shoot digitally. I was shooting medium format film, color, 00:11:30processing my own my--- well, not processing the film, but making my own color prints in the darkroom at the time, um. And, and so everything to me was analog. When I got to RIT, it was, there was this push to move to digital. Um, And with the time constraints of graduate school, it actually allowed me to make more work than I probably would have been able to. Um, So I learned a lot about digital photography and, uh, 00:12:00Photoshop and those are things that I still use today.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Very cool. Alright. Um, Is there anything else you'd like to add about your time at RIT?

TONI PEPE: Goodness. Um. I mean, graduate school was an important time for me for understanding what it means to be an artist. What does that actually look like? What, what does it, what would it mean to have 00:12:30a life, uh, that is involved in the arts. Um, I, I didn't, I didn't really know what that was before I got there. And, and I--- Looking back, I realize how little I knew (laughs) and, um, and how much I learned just from, from my faculty but then also from my peers. I had a really wonderful group. We're all still in touch for the most part. And, um, it's like the, the, you know, the people you meet 00:13:00in grad school, those are the people who just--- They're, they're your community throughout your professional life, um. And I've been so grateful to have them in my life. Um, They've helped me with, my gosh, countless things. They, they are the people you can reach out to with what--even if it's like the stupidest question (laughs) and, and get advice. Um, And so I'm, I'm just happy to have them and see where they've kind of landed as well, so.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Yeah, that's amazing though. 00:13:30That's so special to have. Um. Then I just wanted to ask you how you see your work? Your more recent work, I guess, or just your work as a whole being utilized at RIT through this exhibit.

TONI PEPE: Yeah, I mean, I think with my--- With the body of work that I believe we'll exhibit at RIT, um. It, it touches on so many different topics that, I think that 00:14:00there are, there are many different programs that could kind of intersect with the work. I mean, the first and foremost, of course, photography and even journalism, because they are press photographs. But then within that, if you start to pick apart some of the, the subjects that are being portrayed in the, in the photos, um, you have issues of health care and reproductive rights, um, education, the 00:14:30economy, immigration, um. Politics, ah. There's, there's so much there, I think, that, um. Yeah, that, that I would love to hear reactions and, and, see, um, yeah, how people interact with it.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Cool. And then I kind of wanted to move into after graduating. So I know you, you went to Boston University after RIT, right? 00:15:00[TP: Mhm] Cool. So, if you just want to talk about kind of your transition into, like, life after grad school and kind of what that entailed.

TONI PEPE: Yeah, I think life after grad school can be really difficult for so many people and depending on the field as well. But I also graduated when the economy tanked in 2008. (laughs) So, um, I really thought that I was going to get a teaching job, um, 00:15:30right out of grad school and all of the teaching jobs went away, um, because of all the cuts that were made. Um, And so I had to pivot and I had to really rethink what, what I was going to do. And, um, I, I did go to Boston University to get another master's, and I was able to do that because I worked there full-time in an office and they give you tuition reimbursement. Um, And so I was able to go for nearly no cost. 00:16:00And I, I worked a day job, a nine to five office job, for three years there in order to get the degree. It took me a little longer because I was doing it at night. Um, But it, but it allowed me to work a job that I didn't really want to be doing and--- But it allowed me to do that and sort of have my sanity a little bit (laughs) because I could go to classes at night. And I was taking courses, all the courses I couldn't take at RIT because I didn't 00:16:30have time, right? I was. I was making work. I couldn't, I couldn't take these, um, you know, classes on, um, Christian mysticism, for example, or art history, or, um, or I took this really wonderful class in, um, gastronomy at BU that was about art and food. Uh, So there were all these different topics that I think circled around my work, um, that are more part of the liberal arts and humanities. Um, That 00:17:00I just, I wasn't able to do that at RIT. Because of time restraints. But then I was able to do that at BU, um. And, and it, yeah, it just, it just allowed me to fit in all those readings and do some more writing, which I like to do. And, um, after I graduated from BU that's when I started getting some part-time teaching jobs. The economy was starting to come back a bit and I was able to, to get some part-time teaching jobs that eventually led to full-time.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: 00:17:30Cool. All right. So, I'll kind of shift now into your work and everything that you've been doing. So, it seems like you've always, like, throughout the work that I've looked at you've always been interested in femininity, and [unintelligible], and motherhood as a whole. Um, But I just was curious what really made you dive into the theme of motherhood.

TONI PEPE: Yeah, I think all of my work 00:18:00has just come from personal experience. Um, And so, when I became a mother in 2012 for the first time, uh, it just felt really natural to, to want to explore this new identity I was taking on. Um, And it's an identity that's sort of, it's really rich, um. I mean, I was at the beginning really interested in these representations of mother. Of the mother figure and the more iconic imagery that we 00:18:30see in art history and in painting, and and religious iconography. Um, And then that sort of developed into more contemporary representations and looking at how mothers are portrayed in the US media. Um, And so, yeah, just becoming a mother myself was, was just the impetus for that. And that's just how I've always worked. It's just like something that I'm going through or something that I'm interested in, something that sort of comes from in me, uh, that I that, I that, that I want to pick apart.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: 00:19:00Cool. Yeah I could feel like a lot of yourself and your work, even though I don't know you very well. I could feel that coming out through a lot of your work. Um, And so I just kind of wanted to ask you, like, what being a mom looks like for you?

TONI PEPE: Yeah, um. I mean, it's, it's everything right? It's wonderful. And it's also can be, uh, completely frustrating (laughs) and it can be, um, feel so easy, but then it can feel so complicated. 00:19:30Um, It can feel, um, relaxing and it can feel overwhelming, right? It's like the--- It's, it's oscillating, right? Between these two opposite poles so much of the time, right? Um, And that's a lot of what my work is about is, is this, um, is that it's hard to pin down a lot of human experience, right? That it's, it's hard to describe it in a few sentences, um. And, 00:20:00and so I---My hope is that the work kind of complicates the narratives we have for caretaking and motherhood. And presents an image of it that is really layered and complex and, um, and varied and not, and not, um. Yeah, and not narrow or, or just, you know? Mothering or caretaking only takes place, you know, in, in the domestic and by, you know, a certain kind of-- and that it's gendered or 00:20:30that it's this or that it's that, um. I hope that the work kind of explodes those expectations or assumptions.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Cool. Um, I guess you've kind of talked about it a little bit in there. But how have you seen your work change and kind of shift since becoming a mother?

TONI PEPE: Um. A lot, um. I think when I-- before having children, you know, I could go into my studio and 00:21:00be in there for eight hours and forget to eat and forget to, you know, just forget I was there and like, "Oh, I have to actually, you know, come up for air once in a while." Um, And you, you can't do that when, when other people are relying on you. um. You can't disappear like that. So, um. For many years, my studio became the dining room table and I had to, um, make work that fit there and, um, my children became part of my work. 00:21:30Um, But, you know, I had to bribe them with cookies and gummy bears (laughs) but they did it willingly because of that. Um, and, so it just like, I think folding them into the process of it and, and also being able to find materials and a s-- a working at a scale that made sense, um, for where I was working. Um. Yeah.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Cool. Yeah, that's really awesome. Have they been 00:22:00in any of your work as they've gotten older? I know I've seen them. Like, they're younger in some of your work.

TONI PEPE: Not so much now. I mean, the work kind of shifted from kind of traditional photo capture to more archival and found materials, but I do still make, I have a, um, a project where I've been making molds of their belly buttons. Um, And so I continue to do that every couple of times a year. So...

EMMA TRUSCOTT: That's really cool. I like that project. (laughs) Um, 00:22:30That's actually perfect because it leads into my next question, um, of your use in mixed media and that one's you're talking about is the, 'Of Novels and Navels,' right? [TP: Mhm] Cool. Um, so I've noticed it in that one and also the, uh, the blue disc-- 'The Blue of Distance,' where you use the cyanotype and breast milk. And just throughout 'Mothercraft,' it's different mediums, um. Where did your, uh, interest for, um, using different mediums 00:23:00come from?

TONI PEPE: I think that whenever I'm, whenever I sort of move toward another material that isn't quote unquote "photographic," I'm doing it, I'm doing it because of that material, the potential that material has to relate to photography, if that makes sense? Like, I want to see if there's some sort of relationship. And I'm using those materials, almost through the lens of photography. And so what I mean by that is, you know, for example, 00:23:30I'm making 'Of Novels and Navels,' which is molds of my children's belly buttons, um. The idea of making a mold, you have a positive and a negative, right? Uh, It's also impression. You have to press the mold directly onto the body in order for that imprint to be made, um. And the same thing is happening in a camera. It's an imprint of light on the sensor or the film. Um, And so there are these aspects of photography that I'm interested in, like imprint or trace or, um, 00:24:00the remnant. And those, those are the things that, um, I kind of seek out in whatever material I'm using. And, Typically, those, those characteristics are also related to, um, how the body is integrated or not integrated into the work. And so where photography might kind of let me down a little bit, um, in terms of the relationship it 00:24:30might have with the physical body, these other materials might try to sort of like pick up where the where the photo left off.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Interesting. Very cool. And how do you see yourself choosing which medium for which story you're trying to tell?

TONI PEPE: Um...I think it's just more... It's more through process. It's not, it's not like I sit down and think, "Okay, I'm going to make this 00:25:00and it's going to be through this material and then presented this way." It's not planned out in that way. It's more spending time, um, you know. With the press photos, for example, it was about spending time in the studio with the actual press photo and what would this material let me do? What was its potential? What were its limitations? Um, Because it's a press photo and it's on fairly thin photographic paper, um, 00:25:30layered with more thin, different kinds of paper. If I shine a light through it, well, you can still see through it. You can see both sides. If that, if, you know, with a, with a carte de visite, for example, you couldn't do that because it's on heavier doc, right? You can't really shine a light through that and get anything clear. Um, So it's really about working with the material to see what, what happens what can I do, and tinkering a bit.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Awesome. Yeah. So lots of just experimenting and see 00:26:00things what works and what doesn't. Um. And then do you want to just touch then quickly on like your process and Mothercraft of how you're like actually photographing those pieces?

TONI PEPE: Oh, sure! Um, So I've been collecting the press photos for a long, long time. I've been collecting photos since grad school. Uh, The press photos I started collecting in probably 2015? And, um. And 00:26:30what I'm doing is, well, a press photo is just a photo that a newspaper would keep on file. Yeah, it's a photo that the newspaper would keep on file so that they would have a record of when they used a certain photograph, how it was used. So it might have the caption pasted on the back or pieces of the article. It has like, crop marks and other, um, handwritten remarks and date stamps and all of that. So it's really layered with a lot of information and that's 00:27:00information that's outside of the image, um. And so what I'm doing is I'm pinning up the print on a piece of wire, and I'm facing the back of the print toward the lens. Um, That's where all the text is. And that's really what I'm most interested in. Um, And then I shine a strobe light through the back and, and then the resulting images the front and the back at the same time.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Cool. Um, In regards to like that 00:27:30and all that stuff like on the back of the image, things that maybe people just wouldn't have seen, um, I've, I've noticed in your work, and through different interviews that I've just read of yours, you talk a lot about the relationship between the image and the world. Um, Can you kind of dive into this a little bit further?

TONI PEPE: What, I'm sorry, just about like the image, how it existed in the world, like how it travels? in terms of 00:28:00the press photo?

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Yeah. In terms of that and just how the image kind of interacted with people in the world. [TP: Oh, sure. Yeah] Does that make sense?

TONI PEPE: Yeah. So, with the press photo, what's, what's interesting is that it's, you know, it's this public facing image, right? So, it's not the family album. It's not the photo that maybe a handful of family members would see, you know, pre-social media, right? That, that you would have this in your home and 00:28:30you would, you would, um, share it with close relatives and friends, right? The press photo is the opposite. It is, you know, it is published in newspapers. It's disseminated throughout the country. Um, And so. Ah, it's this more kind of public facing image of mothers and children, um. And what's interesting about the press photo is that you see, of course, where it was published, whatever newspaper it was at whatever part of the country. But then you also see, 00:29:00um, multiple date stamps if it was used over and over again. And so, um, to me that's interesting to just think of, of a photo that could have been used for one purpose and then years later it, it sort of holds up this idea of whatever idea they're trying to, or story they're trying to get across. That it could be used again and again and again. Um. And then also the the text that would be affiliated 00:29:30with that image. Um, The reason why that interests me the most is because the text oftentimes is giving, giving me a window into the values or the belief system of that time period, um. Or how they wanted to present this mother and child or this mother figure, caretaker figure, um. What were their expectations of how a mother should behave or what a mother 00:30:00should look like or where a mother should be found within society. Um, And the text typically reveals that in a lot of the photos that I've found.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Yeah, yeah, there were some crazy things in the text of those.

TONI PEPE: Yeah, (laugher) it ranges from like humorous to just terrifying.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: It really was. Okay. Um. All right. Sorry, let me get back on track real 00:30:30quick, um. (pause)

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Okay, I'm going to shift a little bit towards like your thesis work and how that kind of how I saw that kind of compare to, um, your current work and then we'll kind of come back to Mothercraft. But I'm gonna pull up see if I can share the screen just so like if people are watching this interview they can see what I'm talking about. [TP: Sure] (long pause) Yes, 00:31:00so I'm gonna talk about just like this. Can you see my screen?

TONI PEPE: Yep.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Yeah. [TP: Oh my god, it's my thesis] Yeah. (laughter)

TONI PEPE: Oh, it's been a long time.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: I know, I--- So I read, it might be up here, but I read, "The crooked text in backward loop G's lifted from the back of a family photograph seemed to reveal more to me than the latter side." 00:31:30So I just leave that up there for a second and come back here. I just found this really interesting because I feel like it relates a lot to your work now with the press images. Um, So I was just wondering if you had thought about this comparison? I know you just said that you haven't...

TONI PEPE: Yeah, that's really interesting. [ET: Yeah] Um, Yeah. I mean, I haven't thought about this example in a long time, but, um, but, but, yes, I have 00:32:00always been interested on what's on the back of a photograph. What did somebody write? This was my grandmother who wrote on the back of this photograph. And, um, there's--- Again, it's that, it's, it's it go all goes back to the body, right? There's like this presence of her in that writing that's very different than the presence of her on the other side, right? The image of her and I think my grandfather in Rome. Um, 00:32:30so it's, there's this presence of her body that's writing this and then also what that penmanship, that style of writing, can tell you about that person too. I mean, I know my mother and all her sisters have the same handwriting because they went to parochial school, they have the same perfect handwriting. Uh, and my grandmother, she grew up on a farm outside of Naples and maybe 00:33:00had a sixth grade education, but she was incredibly, um, like she could make anything. And she, and she could make anything exquisitely. Uh, Clothing, food. uh, and really detailed. So she was really good with her hands. Um, And making things, uh. And so it just--- Again, it's that connection to the body and where where that handwriting might lead me. Whether 00:33:30I know the, like, I know this image really well and I know the person and I know all of that, or whether it's a found photograph when I start to look on the back. That's when the image, that's when the photo really reveals itself to me. Um. Yeah.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Cool. Okay. I just thought that was such a neat, like, thing that I came across.

TONI PEPE: Yeah, thank you for 00:34:00showing me that it's been so long. Um, Yeah.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Yeah, I really, I really liked your thesis work and I thought that it was really cool how that it pairs with your current work and it just seems like you've stuck with like a similar kind of--- like I could just see you throughout your work.

TONI PEPE: I think, I think, that's--- I mean, I, the way that I work, it's never this huge departure from one thing to the next. It's always this kind of like, 00:34:30chipping away at something or developing or writing another chapter, you know, in the same book. Yeah.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Yeah, that's a good way to put it, like chapters basically. Cool. So then, more on Mothercraft I-- I guess now, um. You just told me a little bit, I know you talked about some of what it means to you, but, um, since there is a lot of yourself in 00:35:00your work as a whole, Can you tell me what this project means to you? And...

TONI PEPE: Yeah, I mean, for Mother, Mothercraft is, um, it's a project that continues to teach, to teach me, and it continues to keep me looking. Um, I, I really wanted to somehow communicate how rich 00:35:30and complicated motherhood and caretaking is. And it's, it's sort of this idea of when, you know, I remember when my children were really young and I was, um, teaching part-time and I would be home with a newborn and a toddler all day. And, you know, someone would ask me, like, "What did you do all day?" And it would be, you know, I would be sitting there completely exhausted, like, "Oh, my gosh, I haven't stopped all day." But it was so hard to put into 00:36:00words what I did. Uh, So much of care taking is, is consumed. It's ephemeral. And then you have to do it over and over and over again. (laughs) You know, as soon as you do it, it's done. And then, um, it goes away. And then you have to repeat that process. And so it's--- For me, it was really hard to put into words what I was doing, how I was feeling my time, or, or at least be able to communicate that to an audience, um, 00:36:30where I felt productivity was more tangible. It meant like you did this and now I have this deliverable, right? I don't. I don't have deliverables, you know? Like I don't---I, or I can't, I can't show you something that was already consumed and disappeared and, and, or, or it's a slow burn and it just will take time to see what my efforts will reveal. Um. And so for me, Mothercraft was this sort of way of, 00:37:00just trying to call and see, um, what---How motherhood sort of spiderwebs out. Out from the home, into the world, into larger society, in so many different ways. Ah. And, just by, you know, I'm just doing a simple search on eBay of mother and child. And these are the, these are the images I get. I'm not searching specifically for something, um, 00:37:30related to a certain topic and motherhood. It's just mother and child. And I'm getting such variety in the representations. And, um. And, and those representations, they're also tied to, again, that text, that reveals how these mothers were maybe received, or these figures were maybe received. Or how they were presented. And oftentimes that text 00:38:00frames them in a way that can be really unsettling or that wants to kind of put them back in a more restrictive box. But as a contemporary viewer, I'm trying to kind of take that apart and, and sort of reveal, reveal, um, some of those expectations or assumptions we might have. Today. still.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Right. Yeah. And was there a reason that you lean 00:38:30towards the press imagery rather than, like, the personal or family photos?

TONI PEPE: Yeah, I liked that, I liked that these were more public facing. I liked that these were images that were consumed by the masses, right? That it wasn't about the particular. It wasn't about, oh, well, but this was this family's point of view in this part of the country. Ah, It's like, no, this was a, this was supposed to be this very, ah, wide, expasive, 00:39:00ah, representation of how sort of the US is, it, it because these are US, ah, newspapers. It's this more encompassing point of view, right? I like the idea that, almost like the omniscient narrator, you know? Like it's kind of like that? Or, or the sort of impossibility of that, ah, 00:39:30especially if we start to consider the role of time in this work. Ah, which is for me, that's another critical component that, you know, this is a photograph that was taken in, for example, 1956. And someone is looking at it in 2020, you know? And what, and sort of what that, what that time in between, how that allows me to have a certain perspective 00:40:00than somebody in 1956 looking at the image. Um. And so that, you know, time really reveals that the photograph is not static. The meaning behind, within the photograph is certainly not static. Um, And when we add time, you know, to that equation of, of looking and reading and perceiving imagery, um. Yeah, it just shows us, it shows us that, that, that meaning is in flux and that photograph is in flux.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: 00:40:30Oh, yeah, I read on your, on your website under the description, this idea that it illustrates, um, the records of like, their shifting identities. [TP: Mhm. Yeah.] Um.

TONI PEPE: Yeah, I mean, even---Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: No, no, you're good. Go ahead.

TONI PEPE: Um, the, the, the-- I've--many images of women who, um, died in the 1950s and 60s because of, ah, because abortion was illegal. Uh, 00:41:00and I had collected those long before Roe v. Wade was overturned. And when I initially collected those I felt really distant like, "Oh my gosh I can't believe that this would have been the case in the United States." I, you know, I'm someone who's always has grown up with access to reproductive rights and---Oops, sorry, [ET: No, you're good] Something popped up on my screen. Ah, so. So to me when Roe v. Wade was overturned, 00:41:30looking at these images again was, was jarring. It was like, it, it... It made me realize the way that I view the past and how wrong I was. That I was looking back at these women and that time period as, "Oh, my gosh, look at how backwards that was." And how much we've progressed. And it just slapped me in the face and made me realize that, 00:42:00just because we move forward in time doesn't mean we were progressing in all these other ways, whether it's socially, politically, economically. Um. Time does not-- Time is not linear. Time does not move forward in a, in a straight arrow. Time is cyclical, time is wily, time, um, time is amorphous. Uh, And so, and, and that was just for me, the perfect example of how time sort of can shift and move 00:42:30and go around and, uh. And that we shouldn't expect that. I shouldn't expect that things will be better for my children than they are for me.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Yeah, yeah, I was, I, yeah, I was gonna ask you around that whole idea of like things shifting, um. But you answered that beautifully, unless you have anything more to add, but I think that that really hit it.

TONI PEPE: Yeah, no, I think, um, 00:43:00I think that it's, it's, you know, it's certainly what led me to my work that I'm doing now that, you know? That is more grounded in time and the shape of time. Um, Mothercraft really led me to that because of that specific experience of, of looking and how, um, these moments in time and what's happening in, in your time, ah, whether they're political events or, you know, personal events, whatever 00:43:30they might be, um. Yeah. How they can completely change your world view of, um, of the past the present and the future.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Um. Very cool. And since that, that this is just an ongoing project for you, um, where do you see this work going in the future?

TONI PEPE: Um, I really want it to be a book. So, uh, I've never, I've never 00:44:00made a book and I've never seen my work as, as, you know, existing in a book format. I've always seen it as an exhibition. Um. But this, this body, I do, I do see it as a book, um. So that's something that I'm going to be working on this year, um, to try to get some writers and get a publisher and yeah, get it together. (laughs)

EMMA TRUSCOTT: How exciting. Awesome. Um, and then my final question, we sped 00:44:30through these, we did pretty good. [TP: Wow] But, um, my final question is just where you see your role as an artist and an educator, or you can answer them separately, going in the future?

TONI PEPE: Well, I mean, do you mean like the, the relationship of the two? Or...

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Oh, I didn't think of it like that. Um. Yeah, you can talk about the relationship of the two, because I assume they go hand in hand in certain 00:45:00 instances.

TONI PEPE: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, um, for me, my teaching supports my studio practice. It, it gives me a platform to have discussions, uh, with my students about ideas that I'm, I'm chipping away at in my practice. And I, I'm grateful for that and those conversations that we have and the work that they might make and what that might reveal to me and what I might take back to my studio. 00:45:30Um. And, um. And so they do, they do go hand in hand for me, um. I, I love the. the opportunity to mentor, to work with students closely and help them with their practice and, um, and help them work through how to place 00:46:00what they're making into that larger context of art history and contemporary art. Um. And just the, the act of doing that, I think it helps me to---

TONI PEPE: Sorry my computer's like exploding in my face right now. (laughs) Sorry, It's like it won't. [ET: You're good] The warning message keeps coming up and I'm like, "Stop I'm trying to finish a sentence." Let me just, sorry, let me just X out of that. Okay, it was like some window that was open. (laughter) Sorry!

TONI PEPE: Um, Okay. So, so yeah I 00:46:30think they they go hand in hand and just the mentor being a mentor now to graduate students, um, has been incredibly fulfilling just, um, sharing my experience, um, trying to prepare them, uh, I think also allows me to go back a little and think, "Oh, I should be doing those things for myself too." You know, like, it's, there's so many things you have to do to protect your, your studio time and your studio practice. Um. The--- 00:47:00I think that there are all these other obligations we have, whether we're parents or we have another job to fulfill or whatever it might be or student or whatever it is, um. There's so much that can kind of take away from our studio time that I try to mentor more, mentor my students to protect that time and, yeah. I don't know if that makes sense, But.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: No, that totally did. Yes. Thank you. (laughs) 00:47:30Yeah. Well, awesome. And since this is going to go into the RIT archives and students will have access to it. Do you have any advice for students, either undergrad or grad about to go?

TONI PEPE: Yeah, I think, I think for, for any student it's, you know, art, art is hard (laughs) and, um, the path is one that you have to make and don't be afraid to make it and, um. Yeah 00:48:00you just have to be able to-- you have to really, really want it and you have to hold on to that. And, and just not let anyone take that away from you. Um. Again, it's that protecting your studio practice time and, um, trying to insulate that a bit. Yeah, and you just have to, um-- I recently, it was an article, I think it was Arno Minkkinen said, "You stay on the bus." And, and what he means by that 00:48:30is, you know, there are going to be all of these trends and you're going to compare yourself to colleagues and peers who might be getting awards or exhibitions or residencies or teaching jobs or other things that you really want. You're going to start comparing yourself and think, "Well, if I do what they do, maybe I'll get the things that they're getting." Um, But at the end of the day, you have to stay on your bus. You have to do the thing that drives you. And then you'll get to your destination eventually, 00:49:00you're not going to get there if you keep switching buses. (laughter) So, yeah.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Well, cool. Is there anything you would wish I would have asked you that you would like to add?

TONI PEPE: Oh, my gosh. You were so thorough. Um. I don't know. I'm glad you didn't ask me what camera I use. (laughter) But, um. But maybe just, um, I didn't really talk about one other thing 00:49:30is just how much literature plays a role in my practice, um. I oftentimes will-- a book or poetry is the inspiration for what I'm making, uh, or helps frame what I'm making, um. And one book that I'm reading right now-- or that I've been reading. I've read it like, three times already. Um, It's Annie Ernaux, 'The Years.' She just won the Nobel Prize for the book last year. Um, It's her memoir, uh. But 00:50:00in it she talks a lot about photography and memory and time, uh. And just the structure of the book and the way that she writes about, again memory, time, the body, photography, all of it, uh. It's exactly what I want to be doing in my practice, um, and so I, I, I pull a lot, yeah, I pull a lot from the world of literature when I'm in my studio.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Awesome, cool. Do you do any writing 00:50:30 yourself?

TONI PEPE: I do, um, I mean not professionally. But writing is a part of my practice in that I keep a journal and will write about projects that I'm working on just loosely. Um, Yeah.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Awesome. Thank you so much.

TONI PEPE: Thank you. This was great.

EMMA TRUSCOTT: Cool, all right. I'm just going to end the recording.

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