Christopher Nakis Oral History Interview 2, 2023-03-10

ET: Today is Friday, March 10, 2023 and the time is 1:18. My name is Emma Truscott, I am a student employee with the RIT Archives and today I am interviewing Chris Nakis. This is our second interview in a series of interviews. Um. Chris graduated from the RIT school of Photographic Arts and Sciences in 1983 and we are putting-- working on putting together an exhibition of his work. This interview is being conducted in Chris' house in Rochester, NY. And before we get started, can I ask for your verbal consent to record?

CN: Yes, you have my permission to record everything that I say.

ET: Awesome. Alright, so whenever-- when we left off from our last interview, we were talking about the end of RIT and everything. Um, but before we move on, I wanted to ask you about your experience in Austria. If you just want to tell me a little bit about what that trip entailed.

CN: Sure. The, um-- do you want me to give you a lot of stuff or do you want me to just succinctly give you--things--.Because I can talk a lot. So it's up to you if you want me to give you a lot of stuff and you can edit whatever you want to edit. Or do you want me to just give you a small little sampling of what

ET: You can give me a small little sampling first, and then I'll ask if I think of other questions.

CN: Sure, sure. The, um-- it was our third year of-- of-- at RIT there was a program, uh at Salzburg College, went through the Northern Illinois University to have kids from the U-- from the United States, uh from different colleges of the United States to go to Salzburg and to stay either a half year or a full year in the program and one of the programs that they offered was, um, uh, fine art, not really photojournalism, but fine art, documentary photo-- uh photography. You can shoot what you wanted to shoot, it's for your student to explore their vision, their, you know artistic abilities in order to understand what kind of photography they wanted to do. Uh, and just to experience another culture. So, we had students from all over the United States. They would go through Northern Illinois University and then to Salzburg College. So everything transferred over, except I think it was something like, 4 credit hours or something for RIT students for um, photography students. And for uh, at RIT, it was generally the photography program is what they accepted, you know you couldn't be like uh, I don't know, an engineer major or something like that. So, um, and then when we came back we would have to take one course at any time just to graduate. We decided that summer when we came back to take the course before, so that was 1982, the summer of '82, uh so we can graduate in '83. Uh, you know on time, for me it was on time because it was right '79 - '83, four years. So, it was a, uh, it was a program where we learned art history, the art history class was- was very good, very good. The whole year was art history, which was good because it accented photography. Um, you know, you- you- you learned from prehistoric art all the way to modern art and the understanding of different movements and that obviously helped your seeing process. You know, your- your brain developing into uh, you know, into a visual sense. So. And then we took German the whole year, uh German classes, so we um, so we could obviously communicate. That was a thing that, uh, we, my colleagues and I wanted to do-- or my friends-- Uh, more than anything, outside of photography, was to learn German and to be able to speak to just normal, common people over there.

ET: Right.

CN: Now I took German in highschool for 2 years, so I had a little bit of, you know the grammar when you-- when we're taking the classes, that became easier for me. And you know, you-- in highschool you take German, but you really don't speak it that often, so when we first got in there it was difficult to uh, to speak to people. But then after a while, going out, we would always go out and um, do our German classes everyday and try to converse with anybody and we were 00:05:00staying with a, uh, family-- and this is a (Laughs) This is a funny thing, but the family that we stayed with, um they had-- we would rent-- Uh we, um talked about my friend Bob and I, well the three of us went, Bob, Mike and I. But Mike decided to go somewhere, stay with someone else. I can tell you about that later if you're interested. So we stayed and we didn't-- and the people that were the head of the house, they had uh, it was called a guest house or pension. They had a beautiful, beautiful, like house that they had separated and rent out rooms to students and to just visitors that are passing by Salzburg. You can rent a room out for like 2, 3- and it's like a bed and breakfast. They would serve a breakfast if you want them, you know, uh over there. And uh, so we stayed there and that is where we were. I told you about, this is an off the record type of thing, about my daughter and her place that she was staying in Greece with the island and the Aegean and everything [unintelligible]. Well I was similar to that also because our view was, you know, boom, the-- if you've seen the uh, Sound of Music, the Untersberg, the big mountain in the back and the pag and everything. So we had a beautiful view also and then the other thing-- the Alps. We weren't uh, we weren't suffering as far as we were living (Laughs) in the visual aspect. But, it was, it was good because-- and we had, obviously photography class and we would have different workshops every month with a different photographer from Europe. From Germany, from Cze-- at that point, Czechoslovakia because it was, you know, Czechoslovakia, from Hungary, um Austria-- from Vienna. They would set up different workshops and we would have to do those workshops and it would be for the whole weekend [unintelligible]. And other people from Salzburg, from Austria, from Germany, whoever heard about that workshop, if they were interested in photography, they could participate also-- they would have to pay a fee. So we would do that, and it would be a big workshop, uh where we-- whatever the assignment was given because of whom it was that was teaching the uh, the workshop, they would have us [unintelligible]. We would work the whole weekend, boom, out shooting however. And we would go into the darkrooms, uh we'd develop the film, develop the prints and go up and critique everything and then um, and that would be part of it. And so that-- that was very good. And then we would have time, for instance, uh you'd have a recess of week [unintelligible] fall recess or something where you'd have a week. Where you'd usually go home and do something, well we would go to Italy. We went to Italy down there to do something and then you know after-- from winter break we went by train through Yugoslavia to Greece and then we flew to Egypt and then we flew back to Greece and then I went back to my village-- I stayed a week longer than the uh, we had something like 4 or 5 weeks for winter break and then my friends left, went back up to Austria and I stayed a week longer in the village because that was the first time I was ever in Greece, so, where my parents grew up. So I stayed in the vill-- they still had a house there and I knew how to make a fire, boom, you know, and a wood burning stove. And I stayed there a week and then I went back to Salzburg and we finished off the year and now halfway through, some students they left, because they were only there for half a year and then we had a new batch come in for the remaining year, for the spring.

ET: Okay.

CN: And there were field trips, like we went to Vienna, so we would photograph Vienna. We went to Innsbruck and we would photograph that whole thing and you know, no matter where we went we-- the, the-- when we first got there, we would fly-- um in September for the school year we flew into Belgium and from Belgium there was a big bus ride with all the students from the whole school, so we could get acclimated with one another. And it was like a week going down Germany going, staying in different cities of Germany until we finally entered Salzburg and that was just to get accustomed to the uh, the culture, the people, your students and you know a lot of people were homesick. [CN mocks homesick kids] It didn't bother me at all but, some people are emotional like that. (Laughs) So, and that was- that was-- that was a lot of fun, so and then when we came back 00:10:00after the half year was done and then there was another batch of students and they all came, did the whole thing, so they were a little bit tight knitted people at that point and then they came to our school and they didn't know us. Then we would have to, obviously, get to know them and it was just not a big deal.

ET: Right, right. So, were you there for the whole, full school year?

CN: Yep. The whole year.

ET: Okay, awesome. What do you think some-- do you feel like you learned more things there photographically than you would've at RIT?

CN: Um. That's a good question and I would say for me, for me, yes. It depends on what type of photography that you are interested in pursuing. Now if you were, if you wanted to get into some type of professional photography, studio work, um magazine type of thing, eh no you really wouldn't-- I mean it would help also because anytime you go somewhere else and you experience a different culture, you learn new things you know, your mind opens up a little bit more and you get more creative in your, in your being, which will hopefully spill over to your work. So, yeah they can do it, but if you're trying to uh, to you know master the technique of, of lighting, strobes, tungsten lights back then you had, and learning different angles and how to set your, your things up to go into a professional photography, studio photography, fashion or anything like that really. But the type that we-- whether you're a photojournalist, which photo-- a photojournalist major would've liked it. Uh, fine art major, you know that would've helped. Um. The type of stuff that, obviously I wanted to do was try to master the (Laughs) the rectangular frame of the camera. So, yeah because it's um-- you go to Europe it's a different look. We had different instructors every month in those workshops, so you had a-- a-- a lot of variety in teaching, where at RIT you did have that, but not as much, uh because of the way that things are structured. And so, and then you just had the typography for the stuff that we were doing, like I was saying before. You know, you look at things and within the frame you're just looking at objects and how objects fill the frame and how they fit together. Well those objects, in black and white photography, which is what we did, which is what I do, that's what I only do, stick with. Um, certain things lends itself to black and white photography than-- than other things. So like, let's say Egypt, you know that old gritty type of culture, uh the people, you know the guard that they wear and everything. Obviously it lends itself better photographically in black and white imagery than um, you know let's say, I don't know. Well, Southern Henrietta Institute of Technology, Rush Henrietta (Laughs) you know, RIT over there. You know, you have a suburban [unintelligible] and you're always photographing over there, it's a different look, so it doesn't lend itself, I guess as well as like old world Italy, Greece, Egypt and then you could contrast that with something a little bit more newer and lesser-- so, Germany, Belgium, and things like that. So, and then you get a variety of pictures and the good thing about it is then we come back and we have a show. Uh. That's what we did-- we would-- Right when you, it was called the Little Gallery, it's not there anymore, but right when you walk into the photo building, building 7 from the, well I guess if you're coming from the union, you turn right and you go into the photo building and you have that stairwell that just walks all the way up top to the second floor where the big window was, where the printing press used to be. You walk up there and there was a gallery there, it was a beautiful small little gallery there, it was called the Little Gallery. White walls, well you could paint them whatever way you did, but students, primarily uh seniors would have like their senior show up over there.

ET: Oh, nice.

CN: So I remember my friend Bob, as soon as we came back, uh, because we were working, we were-- we took a class and we were able to go in the darkroom, so he finished up a lot of his prints and he had a show there then. My friend Mike and 00:15:00I, we combined ourselves together, we put all our photographs from Salzburg and Europe and everything and we made an even bigger show up there. And uh, so that was-- and you sign up and, and you have a show. So, that was a beautiful space for uh, it had beautiful lighting and you could have a little party for your, for your exhibit and uh yeah it was a lot of fun and that's what a lot of kids would do when they came back from Salzburg. I remember um, well I would imagine that Paula Bronstien that I told you to look up, I don't know if they had that Salzburg college thing, I believe they did, because I'd seen her pictures and they were all about Europe. Now she didn't have a show there, but she had it in the Union, in the cases-- I don't know if they're still over there-- with uh, glass. She had all her photographs up over there, she might've had a show up there, up in the photo gallery also. But, as a freshman I distinctly remember looking at her photos, I said, "wow." After I learned about what photography was, after seeing the picture of the bicyclist and everything, "Oh, okay I see what she's doing." And she was really good and I loved her photographs so [unintelligible] and you know people would come back, they wanted-- if they had a good body of work they would want to show it and hers were,were very good, so I was glad to see that.

ET: That's nice. And did you guys do, um, did you have any type of senior show then?

CN: That was our senior show

ET: Oh that was your senior show, that's fair.

CN: And there, obviously you have the MFA gallery, but we couldn't use that. And that space right there was uh, for your senior show if you wanted to and you would have to sign up for it. Uh, Bob, he was able to get his right, his was the first show so it was right in September and Mike and I when we combined we, everyone had signed up for it and well actually we both signed up and this is when I was mad. (Laughs) But we both signed up for a show and Mike had his a little bit later than mine and it was in the springtime and so my first year instructor, Michael Soluri, who I really liked, liked Mike and everything and um, he had another freshman class and I don't know what it was, it was like a freshman something. That was coming on over there and all the students are going to have their parents come around. [unintelligible] So geeky, I don't know, so stupid. My mother is Greek, you know, like she was going to come to something like that. No way. (Laughs) So, he begged me, you know, "Oh, please, please let me have--" Because it was at that spot, "Please let me have that spot." And I said, well there's no other spot and I want to have a show. "Oh please just go-- go with Mike, combine with Mike. You and Mike can have a show." Well you know I kind of wanted a, you know just to have my own show and he just kept begging because he wanted to show the student's parents how well his freshman class was progressing. So I said, "Oh all right Mike, I'll go with Mike." (Laughs) So Soluri had that space, so I combined with Mike. I was a little bit mad, but then I said, what, forget your ego. Mike is a good friend of mine. He had a lot of good work, I had good work and we put a show together. It was a bigger show and it went really well. And then you know, we brought Greek food. He's Italian, he brought Italian food, and it was a big, you know, opening and everything like that. So we had a great time. So in retrospect, yeah, you know, I would have liked to have my own show but why, it was actually better with Mike and he-- good friend of mine. And the party was a lot better because it was a big combined Greco-Roman feast.

ET: That's really nice. (Laughs) Um, is the Bob You keep mentioning is that Bob? Bob? Manganelli

CN: Bob Mulkern. Manganelli. Mulkern. His name was Mulkern. Right. And then he changed it-- I made fun of him with that. (Laughs) I kept telling him, alright Bob Mulkern, that's a crappy name for an artist. You know, like Jackson Pollock. That's a great name. Henri Cartier-Bresson, that's a great name. And then and then I was like, Christopher Nakis. Now that's a good name. Bob Mulkern? (laughs) So we were walking down the quarter mile and he was like "Yo, but actually my last name, my real last name is Manganelli. So I'll change my name, I'll change it to Mulkern-Manganelli and my friends can call me kern." I said, "No. no no no." Now Manganelli sounds good cause that's a good Italian name, it kind of rolls. Manganelli (says in an Italian accent). So then finally when he went to uh, um, UCLA Film School, back in (Laughs) and he changed his name to 00:20:00uh, Robert Manganelli. So it's been Manganelli since then. (Laughs)

ET: That's awesome.

CN: It was funny when he did it, but it was, you know, we're thinking about, okay, how we have to have a name. And we have to have a good name because artists, you know, have a good name. And if you don't have a good name, you get a nickname like Weegee or something like that. (Laughs) And so--

ET: Yeah. That's funny. Um, okay, and then, I guess next, when did you? What year did you graduate from RIT?

CN: 1983, the fall of '83. So I started, fall of '79-- oh not fall, spring of 83. Fall of '79 to the spring of '83. Just, boom, straight through with no, uh, with no of, you know, cuts in between or anything like that.

ET: And did you have any plans of what you were going to do after college?

CN: Oh yeah it was uh, well uh, it was- it was chasing that rectangle. I'm always chasing that rectangle to try to master it. And so, I wasn't gonna go into sports photography, or wedding photography, or go to the studios in New York City, because a lot of guys like, as I was saying, the professional photography in the studio realm, if you wanted to learn that, RIT was great at that also because they had all of the equipment and they had the instructors for that. And a lot of photographers when they graduated from RIT, they made great assistants in New York City. And all the photographers in New York said, Okay, he's an RIT graduate. Yeah, boom because he knows how to use the lights, do this and then they were great assistants. So, I didn't want to do that though. And so my dream, once I graduated '83, I'd use the darkroom to get a portfolio set. But I knew I needed more than just hey, this is my college portfolio here now, hey, hey, knock on doors, you couldn't do that. So you have to take the next step, you have to do something different. And although mine wasn't that different, but I said, "Alright, what, where can I try to get the best photographs," so at least I can make some type of impact, some type of something from my next step.

And uh, since I, I, uh, did pretty well with photographing my family in freshman year, and then when we were obviously in Austria, um, just everything from like Egypt and Greece and all that. I said, Okay, I have a home in Greece, my father's house, it's just still in the village over there. I can stay there for a year and uh, just stay there and shoot as much as you can, document it as much as you can and come back with hopefully good photographs. Print them up and take them, try to exhibit them. Try New York City, try Chicago. Even Rochester try anywhere. Just try to make a name for yourself. Already had a good name Christopher Nakis, I thought that was a good name. (laughs) Now you have to have photographs of back that up oh. Where Manganelli, Mulkern. No, he had to change his name to try to do so (Laughs). So I had that. And I said, alright let's see if I can uh, if I can pursue that. But unfortunately, my mother at that point, she got sick, so what I was doing is I got my first job at Mel Simon's Photo Labs, which is on Field Street. I don't know if you know where Field Street is over here. It's right off of Monroe Avenue. It's a bakery, it's an old bakery, but he set it up as a photo lab. And so I was taking, I was kind of taking the summer of '83 off. You know, we're just joking around going to parties trying to see, you know, how many girlfriends we can get or something before we had, you know, had to get serious. And my mother "Hey, you guys gotta get to work, what're you doing? Bah bah bah" She kept [unintelligible] All right. All right. So finally, you know, towards the end of the summer, I went up, I walked up to the store and grabbed the newspaper and I looked at the wanted page and you guys don't have that anymore, but I looked at the wanted page and it said photographic, black and white technician needed. I said, oh all right. Mel Simon, so I called him up and I said-- and I made an appointment for the next day. Yeah, sure. So I took my portfolio, I went over there and he looked at it. I guess he kind of liked it. He said, "Okay, you got a job. Can you start tomorrow?" I went, "sure". So I went and he was so backlogged. And this was, I mean, it was black and white photography. He had me printing and you know you 00:25:00had the photographer for, for periodicals from the Jewish Community Center, for like the YMCA, you had these staff photographers doing these things with ladies doing aerobics and everything. So you know, you had to print all of these things up. And so he had so much work. And mind you, this is fall going into the winter and everything. So I get there at eight o'clock, and I wouldn't get out till like 12. So you're in the dark room, and you get out maybe half hour for lunch, and you get a little bit of light back in the dark from all those hours and you become a zombie for all of it. But he had so much work, we had to work on Saturday, also. And my mother kept going, "Oh, no, you're working too hard." [unintelligible] Now she's the opposite. You're working too hard. Now you're gonna kill yourself. I said, but he's got a lot of work. He's got to get that done. And so, um, she got sick and I worked at my uncle's restaurant just too. Well, I was trying to make as much money, so I can leave the following year and live for a whole year in Greece. And so that-- I was just working as hard as much as I as much as I could and just keeping my bank account without touching it. So I had something. And then she got sick, and so I had to take care of her, and so that trip didn't go and my father came back from Texas. So I knew he knew about it. And then because she died and everyone was in disarray, my brother was still in high school. My sister was floating in the ozone somewhere. My uh, my father was over here, you he comes, Okay, what do you want? Alright, let's open up a repair garage. So we open up a repair garage, and we start working. And it's so it's so much work you wouldn't believe. And because it's a AAA station, we're towing, gas station. It's a big garage, everyone's breaking down. Oh, man, it's and then I went ugh, after two months opening, I got to go back, I have all this money saved up. If I don't do it now, I'll never do this. I just went back. I didn't stay the whole year, but almost a whole year. And I just shot-- boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Got all the-- my film and came back worked, worked, worked. Then I took a couple, I took a class at RIT, I think it was Kathy Collin-- No, Mike Solari actually, he was still teaching there. So they give me a uh, um, you know, night school for like, two credit hours, three credit hours. So I paid for that and that enabled me to go in there, you know, process all my film and everything and then I got another-- the next quarter, I was able to go in the dark rooms, the same thing and then print up all the pictures that I had. And then I built a darkroom in my basement, and then I was able to print the rest-- But I, I mean, there were so many photographs that I didn't, I couldn't print them all on silver prints and everything. And so that's why I made my blog and then I just dodge and burn, photoshopped them and put them on the blog. So all those pictures are up there. And I'm not doing the Photoshop correctly, but-- because I'm using like dodging and burning tools, instead of sectioning things off, I don't know how to do that. So I was just using, like I'm, like I'm dodging and burning on an

ET: Right.

CN: On an enlarger. So I'm using-- there's a dodging tool [CN makes a descriptive "ticking" noise] to get into this burning tool [CN makes descriptive noise]. Lightening stuff, darkening stuff. It's not the right way to do it. But that's, that's life. (Laughs) So then I just put those up on the, on the blog and that's that.

ET: Cool, very cool. I'm gonna ask-- I don't know if it's like, but do you care if I switch it to like the other side. Just I don't want it. I don't know if it's rubbing. It's probably fine. It's probably okay. Um. Yeah, let's both get some water and then we can--

CN: I'm giving you a lot of stuff so you can edit shit.

ET: Yeah. It's perfect. No, you're fine.

CN: So that's why I'm just going on as much, as much as possible. [unintelligible] I got stories of Austria-- a bunch of stuff that I can tell you. But, just give me your most important stuff that you want and I'll try to expand on those so you can see you can narrow everything down so you would have-- you know, just like shooting film. If you're going to shoot something-- you're a photojournalist, if you're going to-- let's say there's something happening a Merchants over there, you know, a big water main breaking and it's snowing. Oh, and you're gonna shoot it. Well you gotta go there. Oh, you don't have film. But let's say, hey, get 10 rolls of film and you have to shoot [CN makes a descriptive "camera shutter" noise], cause you have to tell your story, so you need the footage. So you need the footage. And uh, so obviously not everything is going to be good. But you never know what you have [unintelligible] you make blow it up and pick it up. Now you've got the picture. So I'm giving you all that bullshit over here.

ET: That's a great way to put it.

CN: So you can edit it out.

ET: Um. Yeah, so I did want to talk about your mom a little bit. Is that okay?

CN: No, that's fine.

ET: Okay, awesome. Um. So I guess just starting off, just tell me a little bit about your mom growing up.

CN: Oh, yeah. All right. My mom, she grew up during uh, well my mom and my father because they're from the same village and they're about the same age also. So she grew up in,um, it's called, Flamborough, Florina. It's a village, from Florina, it's the last village on this one road. It's in the mountains, a very nice village. And um, they grew up during World War II and then right after World War II, they had a civil war, which no one really knows about that, you know, they know Vietnam, South Korea and everything. But the same thing happened right after World War II, you had um, uh, the nationalist and the communists fighting each other. And where we are up north in um, Macedonia in Greece is, it's very mountainous, and it looks like the Adirondacks. So I don't know if you haven't gone to the Adirondacks. There's a lot of vegetation, uh woods, everything very mountainous and everything. So over there, the Communists were pushed all the way up there and they can use those things for guerrilla fighting, because it lends itself-- the topography lended itself over there. So they grew up, you know, starving in World War II with the Germans, and then starving from, from the Civil War. So they knew how to make things, you know, stretch for like, you know, eating and everything like that. And uh, so she grew up in that period and then my grandfather finally was able to make it on-- her father, was finally able to make it to the United States. His first try failed, he was in France and then he tried again, and he finally made it there. And guess he's just started working at um, a restaurant as usual. And then my old-- my uncle, and my mother came with him afterwards. And then she came back to Greece and she married my father and this was in the 50s, and they came over here. So they uh, well, they started a family and my father was very industrious, so and he had good trade and mechanics and very good mechanics. So just working one week in-- uh one year in a bus stop, and he was able to open up his uh, garages and everything. So my mother was taking care of the family. And so after a while, you know, they bought a house, Vic Park A and well they separated. So my mother was the only one, you know, taking care of us over in this, in the city as we were growing up on Vic Park A. And um, when we moved to Henrietta, in '72, uh she had the house on Vic Park A where she would rent it out, and she would do all the up keeping on and everything. Obviously, when she needed some heavier work, I would help her out. But she was taking care of them because we were still in school, I was in sixth grade, seventh grade. And then my sister will, like I said, she was always in the ozone flying around. So she would work on that and then she got a job at my uncle's restaurant on East Main Street and she was a waitress. So throughout all of junior high school, high school college, she would get up, she couldn't drive. She'd pick up the bus from Suburban Plaza, and she would go all the way to the city and she'd work all day, all night and she would come back, boom, with the bus and then she'd go shopping either at Star Market, Wegmans or Tops, whoever had the most sales, and she would just condense everything and she would save and skimp and things. Yeah there's a-- Okay. I'll give you some ideas of how she saved money. (Laughs) All right, how she would skimp. So for instance, we would shower, she wouldn't shower because that's a waste of water, it keeps going down. So she would put like about three inches of water in the bathtub and she would, you know, get in there and she would wash herself and you know, and you can hear the skin on the porcelain [CN makes descriptive noise] and it makes a weird noise, but we're used to it because we're here. So freshman year, Bob slept over one night and it was my brother and I. We had two twin beds and Bob had a sleeping bag over there. So we're over there and we're talking about whatever. Where my mother 00:35:00wants to take a bath and so sure enough you hear [CN makes descriptive "squeak" noises] the noise that we grew up with. Bob, he jumps. "What's going on over here? What is-" (laughs) He thought something was on the roof like raccoons or something coming."What's going on over there" "Can't you hear that?" No, cuz we cuz it's white noise to us. "That thing right there" "Oh that's mom she's in the bathtub" (laughs) And so I explained her why she does that because she she would save everything and she would just didn't matter everything was on sale she would never buy anything that wasn't on sale and she would she would do everything and then you know that's how she kept the house at Vic Park A and our house at uh-- because she was taking care of the mortgage over there. My father was when he was around yeah, he was, he would help but you know, he was always you know, floating into the other ozone (laughs) going all over the place. So and then she skimped and you know, she helped me through college. And you know, anytime I would work like when I came back from Austria, I found a job splitting wood all summer. And it was in Chili, Churchville-Chili so I went from Rush-Henrietta to Churchville-Chili. You don't know because you're not from around here, but it takes-- and I would ride-- I didn't have a car at that point because my other one broke down when I came back from Austria, I couldn't fix it. So I would ride my bike an hour and a half. All the way. Okay, going back way to RIT to Jefferson road all the way to the end of Jefferson road. Chili Avenue all the way to Buffalo road-- anyways and we chop wood with them, and back then it was $5 an hour, which is nothing now but then it was pretty good. Under the table. So chop wood, split wood all day. It was beautiful to be under the sun and everything (CN makes descriptive wood "chopping" noise) and then ride all the way back home, an hour and a half. I never got a flat tire, which was beautiful. And then, and the guy would pay you at the end of the day, you know, $45, 9 hours of work. And he'd give you beer for uh, for a break with a sandwich, you bring your sandwich but he'd give you a brewski. The other guy that he gives you some water but one guy Clyde, he gives you a brewski. So he would sit and eat. And then I would just, when I went home because I knew how much my mother would work. And she would skimp and everything she was helping me out with college. So all that money that I, I would just give it to her. And to take I don't need it, I don't need anything, I can get anything anywhere. And so and so I was trying to always help her out like that, because with a little bit of nothing she would make so much. And obviously when she died, we didn't know she she left, so she, she had two houses. One she gave to my sister, the other house was in my name. She had a big bank account which she gave to my brother. And with that stuff together my, I put another mortgage on the house and my brother's money that he got from my mother, we were able to open up that big business, the Nakis Auto Care, which was very lucrative for 20 years. So it was, it was a big automotive place. And so that came from my mother, actually. And uh yeah, she, she was tough. And uh, and you know, and then she, in '80.. '84 yeah '84, my uncle-- so the city bought the restaurant over there, so he was building another restaurant. And so she had to start working again to uh, Hickey Freeman. It's a clothing store, they make suits, and everything over here. That was the first job she got when she came to the United States, so now she was there. And she kept feeling something, she'd come home say "Oh they have the fans on over there, my head hurts" and everything like that was stupid. So she put her shawl on and everything. So she would always complain about oh, that dumb fan. It's hurting my head. We didn't know it was happening. And finally we realized what was happening. So then, in '80-- so then when she got sick, and she had her operation, we had to take care of her. And at that point, I said, Well, you know, I'm always here with her, so I'll just document this. And since I couldn't go to Greece, I'll just stay here and I'll document my mother. So I just had a whole uh, series of work from when she was, you know, struggling that whole time until she finally died until we had to put her into the hospital again, because she went into a coma, it was a brain tumor. So at the end, she went into a coma, which is, uh, I mean it's better because there's, there's no pain, but she doesn't know she's out. And by the time we had her in the-- I think it was in August, so by September 15, '85 is when she, she finally died. And that's, 00:40:00that's Olga. (Laughs) And you know my friend, Bob, he knows Olga. Mike knows Olga. [George?] that I still hang out with from, from college. Oh, they all know her. And so yeah, she was something.

ET: Yeah, she sounds like it, she does. Um, so, obviously, I'm sure it was a big task to even just take care of her. But what was, what were some of the challenges of also documenting her sickness?

CN: Um. You know, that's a good question. And it's, I don't know, you may not think it's a good response. But it was actually pretty easy.

ET: Yeah.

CN: Because she's seen me photographing all the time. So for her, it was "Oh, there he goes again." So it was like, you know, though, her washing herself in the tub for us became white noise. Well, the camera around all the time. That was white noise for her. So it didn't matter to her. So I can, I can photograph, no matter what she didn't care how I photographed her, where I did it, whether it was candid shots, or if I set her up somewhere, "here let me photograph you here". And it didn't matter. And, um, she kind of liked it because then it was she and I were together the whole time. So there was always that camaraderie. And uh, and it was uh, and for me, it was, I mean, it's something where,I mean, you have this old world woman that, you know, has all these old clothes. And she has these weird things that she does. For instance, she knew she was sick, so she has her, her instinct to put a lot of clothes on to keep everything warm. So she would, I mean it'd be 90 degrees outside, and she had all her clothes and a jacket on and a shawl. And so those type of things were kind of uh nice, photographically. And so I would shoot her and you know, as far as photography, just plain photography, it's, it's something that's photogenic. So, you know, in bow hunting, say you want to shoot a big deer, well you want to go into the woods where there are big deer, you don't go to the woods where they don't have any big deer, because you're not going to get a big deer there. (laughs) Same thing with photography, if you want to shoot something interesting, go to some place that's interesting, you know, with something that's blase, because you're not gonna get an interesting photograph. So it's a lot. I mean, it sounds a little cold now, okay, maybe, but I'm there. I'm her son, I'm taking care of her. We have that rapport with one another. She knows I'm photographing. I know, it looks good. So I'm just going to shoot her. And that's, and I would always have those photographs. And that's what I have.

ET: Yeah. Did she get to see some on the way? She didn't see anything?

CN: Nothing. Because I didn't um, I just, I just shot all the film and when she died in, she died in September, '85. And that was right at the beginning of the school year of RIT school year. So I went to RIT, it was a little bit late, but I got a hold of Mike Soluri. Yeah. Boom, yes, it was Mike Soluri. Mike Soluri was still over there and then I asked him, I said, "Can I take a night course with you?" You know, two credit hours, independent study. Yeah, no problem. Boom. So that's when I took the independent study and I did her stuff over there. And then when I went-- came back from Greece, in '86 '87, I did the same thing. Soluri was gone, but Kathy Collins was there. So she let me do that. So I did, um, that work with Kathy Collins. And then I couldn't finish, she left and then Dwayne, he used to run the cage, but he had graduated from photography, and then he was teaching a class and I knew him pretty well. So he let me take a couple of credits, independent study. And, um, then as long as I showed them the prints at the end, they didn't have to, they knew I was gonna work I wasn't just gonna blow everything I wanted to get into the darkroom, that's why I'm doing this. So and they didn't have "Well let me see your photograph. You can do this over here." They just let me go then at the end I just showed them my work. [unintelligible] Oh, okay, good. Yeah, that was it.

ET: Yeah. Well, I'm sure she'd be very proud. I love those images of her, they're really nice. How do you, how do you feel now that you have those images to look back on? Like, I'm sure that's a really good--

CN: Oh, yeah. Yeah, obviously. Um, I like em. Uh-- it's uh, you know, I had a 00:45:00couple exhibits and everything where I would put some things up. But I was, and then I would put them online, on my blog and everything, but it's uh, you know, I'm glad that, I am glad that I took the time to photograph her in, in, in that way because I you know, because I uh, had her with me the whole time and I was able to, to shoot and to experiences, so I have the documentation of it. Now with my father, actually the same thing. He just died this year, he was 91. And the same thing, a brain tumor. But and obviously, this goes with DogTown and my dumb ass brother-in-law and in the way that stuff, so I didn't have the opportunity to take care of him. And I wanted to take care of him at his place and I would have been his nurse, and everything and by doing so, I would have photographed him during that time. And um, but because of all the stupid things, my sister put him in, you know, like a nursing home and everything, which was (sighs) irritating, so. So I don't have that with him, which I would have done that. I would have taken care of him and I would, I would have, I would have photographed. Now I did in 2012 when he was 80. He was in Greece and um he was doing his bees, he's a beekeeper. Plus, he got some sweet corn from the US and he-- really good corn, and he grew it there and then, this was the year before, then he sold it he made like 500 euros. Okay, it's pretty good. So now he wanted to do the same thing and coming from the mountains there's a stream, a river they call it but it's like a stream and it's dammed up. And so he was, he wanted to see oh, how can I irrigate this thing by using-- So he goes up to the dam and he is trying to see how he can irrigate his thing. So long story short, he jumps off the dam. And on the dam you know, it's slimy-greeny-algae water, this stuff, and it's on the cement. And so he doesn't fall into the water, which is right next to him, four feet of water. (laughs) He falls on the other side, which is 20 feet down into cement. And he's boom and now he's laid up, and someone has to take care of them. So we're trying to figure out a nurse over there to help him, but they have to come from the city and through the village and it's going to cost more. So when you did all the math, it was easier to have somebody here, go over there and take care of him than to have somebody from there to do it and plus they're not gonna give him the right care. My sister didn't want to do it, so I did it. So I nursed him back and I photographed him there a little bit while I was there. And so I have that, which is like a you know, it's 10 years prior to when he, he did die. So I have that, that I can use but it's not the same as when-- if I had him over here taking care of him while he was dying. So--

ET: Right. All right. And now I guess go just to go back just a little bit back to when you lived in Greece. Um. So you lived in Greece in the year of '86. Is that right?

CN: '86. Yep

ET: Okay. Tell me a little bit more about that year. I know you talked a little bit but you say you stayed in your father's home. Did you have any other family around?

CN: Yeah, my yeah, well, family I have like cousins, second cousins, everything related to a bunch of a bunch of people over there and so they're all over the place. Uh, really close family, my- my brother, my father's brother, my uncle. He was there in another village, my cousin and you know, closer family like that. But most of my close family came to the United States. So just have them and then I just have second and third cousins floating all over the landscape there. And so um, when I was there, I brought a bicycle and it was easy too because it was you know '86, you didn't have 9/11. So I went there. I had a backpack, an army pack and a big rectangular box where you had to put the bike. 00:50:00I bought it from Bike Nashbar, so and I had that with me, and actually Mike [unintelligible] who I went to Austria with, he gave me-- because I stayed with him. I flew to New York City. So I stayed with him overnight and he gave me, when you, did you ever shoot with a view camera? No, probably not. Okay, so a view camera comes in a big, like suitcase, and you put it on its side and you have little cart with straps around like that. So he had that. So he goes, you know, Snake, you're gonna need this thing with that bicycle thing. So he gave me that thing, which was beautiful. So I come out of the airport, and you got to go through customs and I have this big bike. Big backpack and everything and I don't look Greek. So you have the Greek cops over there [Unintelligible] trying to shuffle around the old airport trying to shuffle everybody over there. And he's looking at me. What's this? And I say uh podílato (bike in Greek). He looks, "Oh you're Greek?" And he goes, "Okay just come this way." And he shuffles me, I don't have to stay in line or anything and he just shuffles me off into the-- and then I just got a taxi and found my cousin. So with that bike, I rode to all the little villages around Flamborough. And I would stop, I would go to, to Cafe Neil, uh Cafe Neil is, is like a coffee shop and it's for mostly elderly males. Males would go there, you know, old guys, they sit there and they talk and they play cards, they drink coffee, they have their worry beads, boom, boom, boom. So, and I would, I-I have my summer uniform. My summer uniform is just a pair of shorts, and uh wrestling shoes. So I would go to-- because it's summer, it's nice, you crazy? So, I would go to village to village and I would go to the Cafe Neil. Because at the Cafe Neil you're always going to find a couple of Greeks over there. So I'd go over there and they'd look at me and I can hear 'em talking. They'd go "What's this German here was he is he lost his way over here. This tourist German." So I would talk Greek to them and they'd go, "Oh, I see you're Greek" and then I would tell them "yeah, could you watch it, because I'm gonna go photograph you could you watch my bike over here while I photograph the village?" Go ahead. And then you know, they're all looking. So then I would walk through the village, and I would just photograph, boom, boom, whoever's there. And you know, I get like a strange look from everybody because, you know, I got a pair of wrestling shoes, a pair of shorts on and a camera that's it and my bag where my film is and I'm just going around shooting. And I would stop and talk to people and they would get a kick out of it and then I would tell them what's going on. And so, so each village and there are lots of places that I would stop and then I would go back and then they would know me. Like, "ah the photographer, you put your bike here." (laughs) And I'd go around, I photograph again. And you talk and you help people out in the village in our village. Everyone, they hated chopping wood, they had wood stoves and they would come from-- and there's a big pile in front of everybody's house. They have to chop it and then they have to stack it. I hate stacking it, but chopping it was a lot of fun because you know I did that when I came back from Austria also. So I would go to house to house in there because they have their siestas from 12:00 to 2:00 and it's because it's hot there. And, you know, the summer and I said, are you crazy, I mean this beautiful summer over here I moved to Rochester it's 95% gray and overcast. (laughs) So I'm over there so I would chop wood from everybody, boom, boom, I would chop it all and they would love it. So they would feed me. Boom. And I would go to the next person they would always (CN speaks in Greek) . When am I going to come over there and chop the wood? I chopped the wood and they would feed me. So that's how I made a living. I would eat a lot. (laughs)

ET: Yeah. Because I was gonna ask you, but you were talking about before, how you saved a lot but then I was gonna ask you how--

CN: You saved a lot and you know the dollar went a long ways back then. Uh. It wasn't a Euro at that point. EU, it wasn't in existence. So it was a drachma was the [unintelligible] and when you go to you know, you go to when you're in the islands and it was so cheap. And you know, you're swimming, doing everything you know, hungry by 12 or 1. You get your, you can rent a little Vespa or a little moped. So cheap. (CN makes moped "motor" sounds) You go to a cafe, or a psistaria, taverna-- a tavern and you get this meal oh you get a horiatiki salata, which is a Greek salad with moussaka or pastizio, or any Greek dish. And 00:55:00with a big thing of beer, Amstel beer, oh it was so good, it would just go so good with a side of like lemon potatoes and it would cost $5 or even less for that whole thing. (laughs) So it went a long way. So when I came back, I still had money left over also. But by the time you chop, and when we were going-- because my friend Andy that we went through, he never wanted to stay with us, so we like we went, we went to Crete, we slept on the beach, we had our backpacks, and um, we would find a place and we had those rolls, you know, those roll things? Roll, so you roll that out, and you put like a piece of um, uh, styrofoam. And that's and then you have your back or your your sleeping bag on then you would sleep right on the beach, with your sleeping bags there. And you wake up when you have-- the sea is like glassy, Aegean Sea, you have the sun rising in the east, it's so beautiful, blue, blue, everything is so nice. And then you're there the whole day, and you're swimming, photographing, doing things and you get up, and you hitchhike and you go to the next beach, and you just sleep over there. And when you go into town, you know, I would take my camera, my money and everything, but just leave everything on the beach. No one bothered them. You go into town, you know, you do those things that young kids do. Running around, dancing, doing things, eating, and then you come home, come back and just roll it out. [CN makes a snoring sound] You sleep under the-- cause it never rains here, and you sleep in the stars. And that's where we go, you know, we'd go there, Santorini, [Krios?], everywhere.

ET: That's amazing.

CN: So it was nice.

ET: Yeah, that's really nice.I was going to ask where what inspired your photography while you're there, but it seems like you have a lot of different, like new scenery a lot of the time.

CN: Yeah, it was, and like I said, uh, you're a photojournalist, so you want to tell the story.

ET: Right.

CN: The way, I mean, this is probably cliche or. It's nothing new. I'm not inventing anything. But for me, like I said, mastering that rectangle for me every shot has to be the story. It doesn't have to be a significant bunch of pictures to say something. Each shot has to be its own, it can be part of a story, but each shot has to be something that I would want-- not everything is gonna be your masterpiece, but something that is going to work and it cannot be cropped, it has to have a black border around it so you know that it's a full frame photograph. And so there's no Photoshop to take things away and add something up there, the only thing you do is you manipulate the tones. And obviously, you know I don't know if you ever, if you're ever working in the darkroom, you shoot something, oh, here's you got a nice negative, which is good, you got the tones, and then you make a work print out of it. (laughs) Well, you got to dodge and burn because you don't have good tonal ranges. And it's just you have to learn the technique of how to print, how long to keep it in the developer and everything. And then after that, if you need to use ferricyanide to whiten something up after that what we will do, we will use Selenium tone when it's all done. And a Selenium toner, you can use it so it can be either a brownish hue or a cold bluish hue. I like the colder bluish hue. And what you do, you put that in there-- and this is how stupid I am too. You put it in selenium, it's very toxic and it has a very strong scent and you want to want to wear gloves and everything. But me, I'm stupid. I never wore gloves and I'd smell it, which you're not supposed to do, so I'm probably going to die from cancer. (laughs) So, so then you use a Selenium and Selenium is a lot more stable than silver, so it replaces all of the silver with Selenium and that's why you have that tone. And that's how you do like archival things and all that other bullshit. And that's what all my and that's what the, what the pictures are. And so each picture has to be that. So I don't care if it's everything's from Greece, or everything's from Egypt or you have pictures from Italy, South America, Rush-Henrietta, Pittsford, this, it doesn't matter as long as it fits within, everything fits within the frame.

ET: Right.

CN: And that's, and that is the quest you'll never get the perfect picture and that's what you're striving for the whole time. So it's easy when you're in Greece photographing and everything. I mean, first of all, you have a Greek light. Oh man.The Greek sky is that turquoise blue, forever, especially in the 01:00:00summer (laughs), because there it hardly rains and you get to go sunrises, the sunset and the way it hits objects. Painters go there because they love the light, and they love painting things there. And, you know, it's, as I said, if you want to shoot a big deer, you know, you're gonna go to Kansas, you're not going to go to uh, Delaware. So if you want to take a good photograph, you got to go to a, you know, you'll go to Turkey, you're not going to go to Churchville-Chili, so. (laughs)

ET: Well, as much as I want to stay in Greece, in my mind right now, I'm gonna bring us back to Rochester, unfortunately. But, um, so when you go back to Rochester, after this trip to Greece, was it just developing all these images and then kind of trying to make more of a name for yourself? Is that where you were at that point?

CN: Yeah, we, we came back and we had, we had amassed a uh, portfolio from, from that whole experience of studying in Europe. And plus, we had the class that we had to take in that summer was Soluri's photojournalism class, actually, so we had to do photojournalism. And so we had our freshman year, so and this is what we were thinking about and we had our freshman year, we had our photographs from our freshman year, we had our photographs from our sophomore year, we had our photographs from our junior year over there. And now what are we going to do for a senior year? Well, we have to come up with a-- first for what my purposes were whether I neeedd it to have a strong body of work, a portfolio to show, okay, this is my college stuff. So now I have to move forward in my senior year, which was a mistake that I made, because I should have gone-- by the time we came back, they changed the curriculum around. So when we were in, we were studying our senior year-- well first we did take that class, photojournalism, and we had different projects that we had to do around here. Like we had to do a county fair, we photographed that as, as all the students, and it was, you know, upper class students. It wasn't freshmen like we went by reversion before it was freshman. And Mike Soluri was the photographer. So he took he took us to um, to New York City. He always wanted to take a class to New York, he always said that, oh, I can't wait. I got to take a class in New York City and have them photograph that, I can't wait. So he finally did, when we were juniors, he took that summer course class, and there were about 15 of us and we went to New York City. And we stayed at the Jewish Y, and everybody had a project. I think I told you about this last time, everyone had projects to do. My project was: alright, all these Greeks are, owned these vending machines. You know, they're selling pretzels and hotdogs outside over there. So I said, Oh, I gotta do this. So I photograph them. And you know, "hey, wait, what are you doing man?" With, you know, the Greek accents? So I'd talk to them in Greek. "Oh you're Greek?" Boom, so they'd give me hotdogs and everything and then I went to Astoria and you know, because they're all Greek so I went over there and (laughs) this guy befriended me, took me in and his wife was cooking all these omelets. And Bob, he was back at our room and we had peanut butter and jelly that we both bought so we can have the whole time. We didn't have any money and he was complaining. "Oh you always freaking find good food."

ET: You do seem to always find the good food. (Laughs)

CN:Yeah [unintelligible] Nakis, snake you're always getting this stuff I can't believe it, I'm here eating peanut butter and I'm laughing and I say, "oh yeah, this is what I had today Bob."

ET: That's funny. Um.

CN: And oh, well let me finish up so you can edit this up, so. So in that they had, they switched it off. There's photo illustration, photojournalism and fine art. So I first started with photojournalism. There was this guy, it was his first year of photojournalism. And he, I really didn't like him. He was like this like a beat photographer yet. He was like, yeah here's what you got to-- Beep bop boop. Eh, that's not like photography, I can't do it. So I was gonna go right into fine art because I just wanted to master that rectangle as usual. But then I talked to my friend Bob and Mike and they were saying well, you know this is RIT. Take advantage of the technical aspect of using the flash and the studio 01:05:00and every-- we already know how to do this. We know how to do this stuff, and everything. And I was. [CN makes hesitant noises] And they talked me into it. So I was in their class with them. And it was the worst. Like I said, Oh, it was such, ah, I should never have done that. Oh, like junky instructor, junkie project, junkie, junkie, and I hated it. And I should've just stopped. But then I said, nah just stick it out, just use those stupid. Oh, it sucked. Oh, I hated it so much. And so, at the end of the year, you know, alright, so then we just, I would've had so much other work from senior year, but I just had a little bit of work from there and that's when I just started when, you know, after I graduated, and I just started photographing, and just trying to do other things until I go to Greece. So it was just a matter of building a portfolio, trying to go shoot, trying to get some type of money to do something, whether it was gonna be photojournalism at that point, because then you're allowed to go on shoot, and you can shoot whatever boom, and then you know, the things that you like, you can have yourself and where--however, it was going, however, we were going to, or I was going to be able to make a living. And I didn't want to do weddings, I didn't want to do studio stuff. I didn't want to do any of that. And, uh that was, just to try it that way, but it didn't work. And so--

ET: Yeah. So then what kind of photographic jobs then, did you have after that?

CN: I didn't (laughs), I didn't want to do weddings, I did weddings, but I did it for free. (Laughs) Cause they're all my friends and everything, so and my and relatives, and I would just, you know, they are my relatives, this will be my gift to you. So I would photograph their weddings for free and everything. And I didn't really uh, I didn't. I didn't make any money in photography, I was just working, and shooting wherever, whenever I could shoot, and just process the film in my darkroom, and just print things that I would think would work well. And uh, and that's what I would do this the whole time. It was more of a, like a part time thing. Because I had businesses to take care of, and, you know, bills to pay and all that kind of stuff. So, So then it became, it became a hobby, but it's more of a hobby, because I trained in it and I tried to pursue it in a more of a, you know, in a bigger way than just being a hobby. But in the end, that's what it is.. And so, you know, obviously, I made a movie about [unintelligible] If you want to talk about the other aspects. Yeah, we can do that whenever you want. So yeah. That's, that's the next step.

ET: Yeah. Well, that's actually next on my list is to talk about the films. More so today about um-- because I do want to get in deeper to um, your documentary, but I do want to talk about how you got into the world of cinematography and like the film industry, like how did how did that begin?

CN: Okay. So we graduate, I wanted to do my Greece thing. Bob went to uh, Maryland, uh DC. Mike went to New York City, he started shooting studio work and he was really good at it. First, he was a, uh not a PA, what do you call it-- an assistant. Oh, he's a good assistant, and then he, he became a good, you know, studio photographer until digital killed him. But yeah, oh, you wouldn't believe the studio that he had in Manhattan. I mean, it was giant, like 2000 square feet and he, it was rent control. So he had it for years and years until he finally got bought out Oh, it was great. So you know, even when he, even when the photography ended, you know, he still had that place until they had to buy him out, but, but he did well in in studio. Bob went to Maryland and he was photograph-- he made great photographs. He's another he's so stupid, though. He lost all his photographs, all his negatives are thrown out. He left it to some place and (laughs), what an idiot, they tossed them out. They threw 'em out so he only has a few prints of all his work. He's one of my favorites. Like, like a Paula Bronstein, that's how Manganelli's photographs are. [CN sighs] Fool. So he 01:10:00made, he decided to go to film school. So then he goes to film school, um, to UCLA. He gets in there. I'm doing the uh, the garage. I did [photographed] my Greek stuff and everything, I did [photographed] my mother, I went, I was working at the garage. And then what happens back in-- Huh, yeah, nine-- around '94, '95 Mike Solari is getting married. So he wants Mike and I to document his wedding as a wedding photog-- you know, black and white boom, boom, boom, boom, and he wants Bob to do a Super Eight, [single dip?] Because now he's in film school. So he gets us all together in New York City, boom. And we're shooting and we're doing this and everything. Now Bob gets a big ol head at that point because at UCLA, he was the top student there, he won all these awards and he went into the Sundance Institute. I don't know if you know what the Sundance Institute is. He got accepted for his screenplay, well, his uh, his short films were put inside there. And his short films were very, very good short films. And he was in The New York Times uh article, you know, "here's Manganelli in Sundance," I think they're quoting him and everything about him. And he was an up and coming guy, at that point, just like a year or two before was Tarantino and his Reservoir Dogs was workshopped at Sundance, just like Bob was doing his script, so then he was able to make that and then he did all his other things. So now Bob was over there at Sundance. And so, um I didn't know, at that point I didn't know what the hell Sundance was, but we're shooting and we're talking, we're staying in Mike's apartment. Bah, bah, bah, bah, bah, things happen. Bob is, you know, full of himself. He and I almost get into a fistfight, over there. It was stupid, but we almost get into a fist fight. So I didn't want to end him [unintelligible], so I leave. Um, and so his brother was going to finance his film. But and, well so his brother, uh with all his money, when you go to Los Angeles, you always find a bunch of prostitutes and uh, and cocaine. So he ended up doing nothing. So here was Bob, who's going to be this big producer, you know, both filmmaker and everything off, whenever you want, I'll tell you about those stories also.

So then finally, about 1996-- because we're moving from one garage to the other garage and then right before the move, I said, you know, let me just call him Bob to see what the heck's happening with him. So I called him up. And he's down in the dumps because his brother wasn't financing his film, he was doing cocaine and prostitutes. (laughs) So, so then, I said, Okay, come on over, I brought him over here. And then I said, let me see what I can do. So I wasn't really thinking of financing, so I thought maybe I can get some money together to do it. Anyway. So that's how the ball started rolling. I said, "Alright, let me--" I started raising money from people that I know, I said, "okay, this is what we got to do" because I knew if you get, if you make this movie, you make the movie, I know, we're gonna be able to exhibit it at Sundance. And people are dying to get into it. I didn't know about that, but Sundance was the premiere festival in the United States, just like the Cannes Festival is in Europe, Sundance in the United States. And so if you get into that thing, I mean, it's a big time. And so we already had a foot in there. So I did the mathematics in my head. All right, this is a thing. Yeah. If you have that, I know we'll get in there. So then I just put on my time and effort. I said, "Okay, Bob, I'll try to, to raise the money for your movie." So, it's a long story. It's a lot of detail on how you did it, but I was able to raise $333,000 Boom. We're able to go all to these actors to try to get actors because in order to make a movie, you need money, and talent, you can't get talent without money and you can't get money without a talent. So, try to put all that together. It's such a pain in the neck. And so finally, finally at the end, um, you know, I'm dealing with William Morris Agency, CCM, I think ICM, all the big agencies in, in Hollywood, where, you know, no one can, you need an agent to do that. But what we were doing, I was sending um, money orders like $100,000 money order for an actor like I don't know, [unintelligible], let's say, but he could cash it then and he'll get another $100,000 uh when we do the film. So right now, right up front 01:15:00we're giving you $100,000 and everything. And so we would give them the screenplay and everything and uh, it would be, well, no, it's not enough because you know, he's a million dollar actor or whatever, but they would send it back. But the whole thing is they would have a bank check for $100,000 in their hand. Now, if they cashed it, that means, you know, he's got to do it because it's on the contract, but they would send it back. And after a while, you know, we are sending $100,000 here, here and there. (Laughs) And then all of a sudden, the, the agent, the top agent, they would call me and say, "What do you think? No, we can't do that." So I would talk to them and so at the end, we finally got John Mellencamp, he wanted to do a movie-- John Cougar, little ditty 'bout Jack and Diane. That idiot. So he was the one that we finally were able to get. Because of him, we were able to raise another $1.4 million. We made the movie and at that point, that's when I was working at the garage and doing this. And so it was, it was hard and then so that's how we started to make the movie. And so after that, we went into Sundance, and at Sundance, it was, the movie was picked up internationally, all the distributors bought the movie except Germany. I don't know why but, Germany didn't buy the movie. We sold all to Europe, South America, Asia, but Germany didn't buy it. So then, a couple months later, then Miramax bought the North American rights to it. So that was good. So did you ever hear of RKO Pictures? You ever see? Let's do the time warp. Rocky Horror Picture Show. (singing)

ET: Oh, Yeah.

CN: Okay, Rocky Horror Picture Show, RKO Pictures did that. In the beginning, at the end, it's like a, it's like an antenna? [CN makes a descriptive "ticking" sound] We grew up with that, because RKO was an old company. So because we were able to make that movie at $1.4 million and it looked like a $10 million movie. So they thought, hey, these guys can make small movies. So RKO Pictures contacted us and said, we have this library of work, which we have shot, the early film noir-ish type of things. Just take them, rewrite them the way that you want, and shoot them, you know, low budget, $2 million, whatever like that. So they were, you know, in my house, and Bob was there, and they were sending us VHS. And we were watching all these movies, and he didn't want to do any of them. (sighs) Bob-- So he don't want to do any of them and so we ended up not doing them. He ended up going to Ecuador, doing Ayahuasca with the Shamans, (CN makes descriptive "ooh" sounds), he comes back and he writes a screenplay, we almost were able to make a $15 million movie, but that fell apart. Did you ever see the movie uh, Memento? Guy Pierce, the actor there, we had him. But then that all fell apart. And so then I got a book deal from somebody wrote, "write this Bob," he would write it, this other guy wrote at the end, but he didn't want to do it. That fell apart. (laughs) So Bob, make the movie. He doesn't want to. So then finally, I said, "okay". At the end I said, "I'll make a movie. I'll make a movie, I'll make a documentary." So I told Bob, you got into somewhere there. I'll put in this money, you put in this we'll both make this movie because it'll be, you're learning how to bow hunt, but you're a photographer. And you'll have some, that I am a bowhunter and I'm a photographer also. And then we'll just-- the interaction between he and I, and the shooting and everything. And it would have been so much better. It would have been-- and he would've, I would I put about 20,000. He would have put 20,000. So just that alone would have given us a better production value and everything we would have had more, but he didn't want to do it. And then his son committed suicide and that's the whole different story over there. And so that was the film quest. In between there is when we opened up Dogtown also and I'm trying to make these movies while working in Dogtown. So one movie after another after another and I was able to-- another kid made, another kid wanted to make a movie and he needed a producer. So he brought me on board as a producer and we finished it. It was three-- it's not such a great movie, but he wanted to do it and so I helped him 01:20:00and um, so I have, so I did three and actually I did a little music video.

ET: Oh cool.

CN: A Greek music video for, I had a budget of $1,000 I brought it in at $500 and I made a little Greek video. (Laughs)

ET: That is awesome.

CN: So that was that.

ET: That's funny. So is that second-- Or the third movie you're talking about 3.14?

CN: That's the second one.

ET: That's-- okay, okay.

CN: Blue white tail is the third

ET: The third one. Okay. Okay. And so were you what they call like a producer on those three movies?

CN: A producer.

ET: Okay. So I guess you did tell me what that entails.

CN: Yeah, it's a product. Now, I had an argument with my friend John Vincent over what is an executive producer and the producer. If you have the money from the film, you can do whatever you want. You can have any type of title that you want. But as a producer, so when you look at your movie, the next time you're sitting in your you know, watching your movie or whatever it is. (clears throat) For a producer the top credit comes right before the director. So as you know, in the beginning of the I mean, they've changed them all around, but if you in the beginning of the movie, you see the credits you know cinematographer, production designer, editor, screenplay written by, boom, then you have associate producer, executive producer. Boom. So, the produce, the producorial credit: produced by boom, that comes right at the end, because at the end of the title sequence, it's 'directed by', the 'directed by' is the last credit on the film when you show it like that. And in your um, in your, what do you call it, in your advertising. So the producer that is the closest to the director, that is the top producer. So because White Tail Images was my production company that financed everything in the beginning. And then I brought on another producer John Cocca, so we can produce and we're making, we're actually making the film. Now I found the money people. The actual person who put in the $1.4 million. His name is Robert Sturm. Aaron Rifkin, he was a big executive for William Morris. He was partnered with John Mellencamp, he-- Rifkin brought in the talent, Sturm brought in the money, I gave them executive producer credits. They were, you know, the nuts and bolts and making movies. They gave us the big things. Now if they want, if they said, "well, we're going to be the producers over here, we want those things." But then we would have had an impasse. We said, "well, you can't because you're not going to be doing this." Yes, I know, what's your money and everything like this. So at the end of the, if it was eager to take this or not, we wouldn't give it to him. But that is the producer. So there's so many other ways of producing-- Our assistant director, very important in the film and this guy, without him I don't know if we would have been able to make the movie. He was a great guy, Van Halen. He was our assistant director, but I gave him an associate producers credit also because he was so valuable. Katie Papis over here, she saved the production. Our production coordinator left the day before production and we didn't have anybody and a production coordinator, you needed somebody smart over there. And the smartest person we knew was Kaite. So we brought in her to do it. Bob, when she came into the office, she said she would do it, he fell on his feet and he was like worshiping her. So she got an associate producer credit. Tony Schillaci, who was the co-writer with Bob, he came in, wasn't getting paid, but he was helping Bob with the writing-- because as you're going you're always changing dialogue and things like that. I gave him an associate producer credit also. And that's how you get credits out. That's what a producer does.

ET: Okay. That makes sense.

CN: So, all these other things. Then you have a production coordinator, you have a line producer, which is a producer on the set with the, with the assistant director, and he makes sure, he's like a manager, he makes sure everything goes up. I didn't have money for that, so I was that too. Because it was like running a business, we need this thing over here and you know, you guys do that. So I would have to be a line producer also, but at the end, because I'm-- cuz it's my film and I'm making, I'm doing the craft service. I'm doing the security for the for for, you know, overnight watching the trailers and everything, I'm doing you know, I gotta get to craft the food for the catering, you know, do it and you 01:25:00just do about a million types of things. So that's a pretty-- I'm producing the movie. It's my thing. So that's why John Cocca and I, because we were the nuts and bolts and put everything together. We got the big producer credit right before the director.

ET: Okay, I see.

CN: It's weird and it's stupid but, but that's how they that's like the hierarchy in the totem pole of Hollywood.

ET: Yeah, that's crazy. And Katie, I just want to mention to Katie, your wife, correct?

CN: No, Katie's not my wife, she's my friend.

ET: Oh! What's your wife's name?

CN: Yeah. Anastasia is my wife. She's in Greece. Big long story.

ET: Okay, no, it's no problem.

CN: Okay, big long story. But Katie, she, I, she, she came down with cancer. So I helped her here. I had to. It's a long story. Because my wife and my kids, they went to Greece over there, to-- because I was doing the movie. We just started in Dogtown, so I was working over 100 hours a week and trying to make another movie and everything like this. So my wife, she always"Oh Greece," I was always, she was always going back and forth in the summer and, because I had a lot of money from the repair shop. So I'd always, "Yeah, go go, go, go go". And she always, when the kids were born, she always wanted to have the kids go to Greece for a year to stay over there. So when we were doing Dogtown and the movie, she said, listen,"You're hardly home. Let us just go for a year, in Greece," you know, so they can have the culture, the thing and everything because we have here, but it's different there. And you know, they have cousins and everything over there from her side of the family also. I said, Alright go for the year, so they went for a year, and this is what pisses me off. This is during the hou-- the '98, '99 the '97 '97-- What am I talking about? 2008, 2009. The housing crisis, you know, where the banking crisis where you had tarp, and they, and we the taxpayers pay for Goldman Sachs and everyone to, to bail them all out and everything was the bubble, was a housing bubble. She bought a house over there. My cousin co signed it without me knowing any of that stuff, cosign that and everything like that. And uh, then when they're supposed to come home to-- "no, no, we bought a house." What are you crazy? No, I have my house in Henrietta, and I'm working. So I was just gonna let him fail because who's going to pay the bill and everything. But then I knew if that happens they gotta come back and I'm gonna get a divorce. If that's going to happen, it's going to be the biggest pain in the neck. So I said, all right, I can't do that. So as I'm working, I'm paying for that house and my house. And I can't do it. It's just too much money. And so Katie gets cancer again. Well, she had that, and then she comes back home. And she has, I mean, she had a big-- and then she has to do it all over again. And then she has to go through chemotherapy and bring the chemotherapy at the house. So, So now her father set up the Institute in, in South Carolina. He's well, he well, he was the head of his department, NIH, and when they broke it split apart, he went to do something else. He set up the Institute in South Carolina. And so he brought on a lot of great scientists and surgeons and so her colon cancer that she had, the surgeon over there was one of the top surgeons, and they have a house over there. So she went and she lived over with her mother and her mother took care of her for the whole time, boom, she comes back over here, and they check again, and it's back. So now she has to do all this stuff and do the chemotherapy, so instead of her going back over there, I went, well, I can take care of you over here because I already did that before and everything. So, So I helped her out over here. So I said now I'll sell my house because I can't do both over there. So meanwhile, while that happened, my wife got cancer over there. So now you have socialized medicine, which is the worst. You know, you stand in line and you'll never get treatment. It just, that's just how it is. No one understands what happens. If everything is for free, you got a big line over there and you don't have people taking care 01:30:00of you. But over, it's different in Canada, they don't allow this. In Canada, they have a big socialized system and everyone's on a waiting list. That's why they come to the United States to get surgery done and everything, they pay for themselves. In Greece, it's the same thing. If you want to go to the hospital to do all that, you got to wait and wait, and people die of cancer that way. So what happens is you go to a private entity that will take care of you, and there it's so much better. So in that house, all that money went to give her the, the cancer treatments and everything over here. So now I don't have a house. So I stay over here, I'm working over here, I take care of Katie. (CN mumbles) So then the kids grow up over there. My daughter goes to school, so I'm paying for the school to go over there and boom, she goes to school, everything. She loves it over there. She wants to stay. My son, you know he wanted to come here and didn't want to stay over in Greece. So he comes over here. The only thing is he's got to go to the army because he was registered. Even though he's born here he was registered as a Greek citizen. Now, he's got the army, he's got to be a Greek soldier. (Laughs) And that's the, that's the, the nuts and bolts of what happened in, in a small, short, succinct way.

ET: Okay, that makes sense. So now, your kids, but do both your kids live in Greece?

CN: No. Achilles is here.

ET: Okay. And your daughter is over there.

CN: Alexandra is over there.

ET: Okay. Okay.

CN: And Katie. I knew her from the repair garage because she was getting her master's degree at the U of R and uh, she just needed some work to be done.She kind of just looked at the phonebook and saw Nakis she saw we had a pretty good logo, might be Greek. So she came over there and that's how we met Katie. And that when I found out that she was, you know, postmodern American poetry and all that, going to be a PhD thing. And she was gonna go move her PhD I would give her, here read Bob screenplay. What do you think over there? And so and so is so we started the whole production over there. I brought her on board to help out and she would type and she would do stuff when she could for the movie, because our production office was in the repair garage.

ET: Yeah.

CN: And I had so many people coming in and volunteers helping and doing this and doing this trying to get a movie done. So it was, and then she became good friends with my Fran and Peggy, my brother in law, and she would always go over there. John Cocca would always come, Johnny, Miko, everyone would come. We had so many volunteers come in, and we almost went into, you know how to start to get into production. There was a couple of times, so we're always shifting and doing things. And this is just stupid, independent filmmaking and everything. And finally, it's done. And you at that point, Katie, she got pissed at Bob and the guy's a, he's a loser. He's stupid. So she, "don't even bother me". So, she leaves and everything like that. Now we need Oh, shoot, who's gonna take who's gonna do the production coordinator and everything? We don't have a production coordinator now because she left right before we're gonna start shooting. And then the boss says, I mean, it's gotta be Katie, she's the only smart one that we know that can do this, you got to ask her. I say, "Oh, she's gonna kill me. I can't ask." You got to ask her. So I went to the library. You know, tail between my legs. So, she comes and she does it, she saved my production. (Laughs)

ET: That's awesome. All right. Well, that's where we'll leave it today and then next time, we can start off by talking about The Blue White Tail and photographic processes and stuff. But yeah, that's it for today.